Podcasts

Retiring ASCO Chief Medical Officer Dr. Richard L Schilsky gives a far-reaching interview with ASCO in Action podcast host ASCO CEO Dr. Clifford A. Hudis, who examines Dr. Schilsky’s trailblazing medical career, his leadership in ASCO and indelible mark on its research enterprise, and what he sees for the future of oncology. ASCO’s first-ever Chief Medical Officer even offers some friendly advice for Dr Julie Gralow, who starts as ASCO’s next CMO on February 15, 2021. In a touching tribute, Dr. Hudis also shares what Dr. Schilsky’s friendship and mentorship has meant to him personally, and suggests that Rich will still be supporting ASCO on critical priorities moving forward. Don’t miss this exchange with one of oncology’s greats!

Transcript

DISCLAIMER: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: Welcome to this ASCO in Action podcast brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insights into the world of cancer care. You can find all of the shows, including this one, at podcast.asco.org.

The ASCO in Action podcast is a series where we explore the policy and practice issues that impact oncologists, the entire cancer care delivery team, and the individuals we care for-- people with cancer. My name is Dr. Clifford Hudis. And I'm the CEO of ASCO and the host of the ASCO in Action podcast series.

For today's podcast, I am especially pleased to have as my guest my friend, colleague, and mentor Dr. Richard Schilsky, ASCO's chief medical officer. Now, I am sure that many of our listeners have already heard that Dr. Schilsky will be leaving ASCO in February of 2021, retiring.

However, I want to reassure everybody that even in retirement, he will continue to make contributions and provide leadership to all of us. And his illustrious and path-blazing career in oncology spanning more than four decades is not quite over thankfully.

Rich is ASCO's first chief medical officer. And as such, he has made a truly indelible mark on all of us. He started with a proverbial blank piece of paper. The position had no precedent. It had no budget. It had no staff.

But now after just eight years in the role, he has helped make the CMO a critically important position at the society. And I have to say that success is more than anything due to Rich's vision and his leadership. And that's some of what we'll be talking about today.

So Rich, thank you very much for joining me today for what I hope is going to be a great casual but informative conversation about your amazing career, your unique role at ASCO, and maybe most importantly in the end what you see for the future of oncology not just in the United States, but around the world. Thanks for coming on, Rich.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Thanks, Cliff. It's great to be here today.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: So with that, let's just dive right in and start at the very beginning. Rich, tell everybody why you decided to become an oncologist and maybe share a little bit about what those early days looked like for you and, in that context, what it was like to have cancer at the beginning of your career.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Well, I knew from an early age that I wanted to be a doctor. And in fact, I had written a little essay when I was in sixth grade as a homework assignment called My Ambition. And my mother had tucked that away in a scrapbook. And I found it a number of years ago. And on rereading it, it was quite amazing to me to see what I was thinking about even then.

Because I said not only did I want to be a doctor, but I didn't think that was enough, that I wanted to be a medical researcher because I wanted to discover new information that would help people heal from whatever their diseases might be.

And so it was never really any doubt in my mind that I would be a physician. I went to medical school at the University of Chicago. But I was living in New York City at the time having grown up in Manhattan. And the only year we had off in medical school, the only time we had off in medical school, was the summer between the end of the first year and the beginning of the second year.

So during that time, I went back to Manhattan. And I was able to get a fellowship from the American College of Radiology that allowed me to essentially hang out in the radiation therapy department at New York University Medical Center, which was within walking distance of where I grew up. And so I would go over there every day. And I was taken under the wing of a young radiation oncologist.

And of course, I wasn't really qualified to do anything at that point except to follow him around, talk and listen to the patients. But that turned out to be a really formative experience for me because we saw the whole gamut of cancer. We saw head and neck cancers. We saw lung cancer. We saw patients with breast cancer and prostate cancer.

And in those years-- this is the early 1970s-- many of these patients have fairly locally far advanced disease and were quite debilitated by it. But listening to their stories, hearing about their hopes and their struggles, really demonstrated to me the human side of cancer.

So I went back to school and thought about this in the context of my own personal experience, which dated back to when I was in college when my mother's mother, my maternal grandmother, was diagnosed with breast cancer. This was 1968. And as you well know, there were very few therapies available for breast cancer in the late 1960s, mostly hormone therapies.

And my grandmother had the treatment that was considered standard of care at that time, which was extended radical mastectomy followed by chest wall radiation. And some years after that first mastectomy, she had a breast cancer that developed in the opposite breast and had a second extended radical mastectomy and chest wall radiation. And these were very traumatic and disfiguring procedures for her to go through.

Anyway, long story short is after another few years, she developed bone metastases and then brain metastases. And there was really very little that could be done for her other than hormone therapies. And having observed her go through that illness and realizing how limited our treatment options were and then having the experience after my first year in medical school pretty well cemented for me that I wanted to be an oncologist.

I thought actually about being a radiation oncologist. But then I did my internal medicine rotation in medical school, fell in love with internal medicine. And that sort of put me on the path to be a medical oncologist.

The clinical challenge of caring for cancer patients, the emotional attachment to those patients, and, of course, even then, the unfolding biology of cancer was so intellectually captivating that I actually applied for oncology fellowship when I was a senior medical student. So even before going off to do my medical residency, I had already been accepted as a clinical associate at the National Cancer Institute to start two years hence. And that's how I became an oncologist.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: So it's so interesting. Because, of course, the story I'm sure for many people interested not just in oncology, but even medical education, there are little things that don't happen nowadays that happened with you like that last little vignette about the early acceptance into an advanced training program before your fellowship among other things.

Can you remind us about the timeline? Because I think one of the things that many of our listeners often can lose sight of is just how new oncology really is as a specialty. ASCO itself founded in 1964. And the first medical oncology boards were mid-'70s, right? So you were in med school just before that second landmark, right?

RICHARD SCHILSKY: That's right. I graduated from medical school in 1975. I started my oncology fellowship in 1977. And I got board-certified in medical oncology and joined ASCO in 1980. And so that was the time frame at that point.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: So the internal medicine was actually, if I heard you right, just two years, not the now traditional four.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Yeah. I was a short tracker. I did only two years of internal medicine training rather than three. I did my training at Parkland Hospital and University of Texas Southwestern in Dallas with at that time a legendary chair of medicine, Don Seldin, who I had to get permission from him to leave the program prior to completing the third year of residency because I had already been accepted into fellowship at NCI.

And he, Seldin, who was a brilliant chairman and a brilliant nephrologist, was not at all interested in cancer. And it took a bit of-- I was going to say arm twisting, but it really took bleeding on my part to get him to agree to allow me to leave the residency program to go to the NCI. But he eventually agreed.

And in those years, the first-year clinical fellowship at the NCI was like being an intern all over again. There were about 15 of us. We were on call overnight in the clinical center once every two weeks. We cared for all of our inpatients as well as had a cadre of outpatients.

We did all of our own procedures. We had no intensive care unit. So patients who were sick enough to require ventilator support, we cared on the floor in the inpatient service on our own with guidance from senior oncologists. It was a bit different from the way it is now. But, of course, it was fantastic on-the-job training because we just learned a ton and had to learn it very quickly.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: So that's actually a great segue to the advances because there was a lot to learn then. But, wow, there's a lot more to learn, I think, now. And I have real sympathy for trainees and younger oncologists for the breadth of what they need to learn. Again, just testing your memory, but platinum came along pretty much in the mid-'70s as well, right? That was a pivotal expansion of the armamentarium for us.

So what do you see-- when you summarize progress in cancer research and care over these decades, what do you think are the most pivotal or revolutionary milestones that you identify over the span of your career?

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Yeah. It's really interesting to think about it historically. There were the early years of discovery in oncology from the 1950s to the 1970s when we really had the introduction of the first chemotherapy drugs and the miraculous observation that people with advanced cancer could actually obtain a remission and, in some cases, a complete remission with chemotherapy and combination chemotherapy in particular.

And so that was the formative years of oncology as a medical specialty and really proof of concept that cancer could be controlled with drugs. When we got into the 1980s, the 1980s in many respects were the doldrums of progress in clinical oncology. There really was not a lot of innovation in the clinic.

But what was happening and what was invisible to many of us, of course, was that was the decade of discovery of the fundamental biology of cancer. That's when oncogenes were discovered, when tumor suppressor genes were discovered, when it became clear that cancer was really a genetic disease. And that is what transformed the field and put us on the path to targeted therapy and precision medicine as we think of it today.

So I think that clearly understanding the biology of cancer as we do now and all that it took to lead us to that point, which was a combination of understanding biology, developing appropriate technology that would, for example, enable the sequencing of the human genome and then the cancer genome.

And the other formative technology in my opinion that really changed the way we care for cancer patients was the introduction of CT scanning. When I was still a fellow at the NCI, we did not have a CT scanner. If we needed to get detailed imaging of a patient, we did tomography. And if you remember what tomograms looked like, they were really blurry images that you could get some depth perception about what was going on in the patient's chest or abdomen. But they really weren't very precise.

When CT scanning came along, it really revolutionized our ability to evaluate patients, assess the extent of disease, stage them in a much more precise way, which then allowed for better patient selection for curative surgery, better radiation therapy planning. So we don't often point to imaging advances as some of the transformative things that paved the way in oncology, but I think imaging is really overlooked to some extent.

So I think the technology advances, the biological advances, are the things that really allowed the field to move forward very quickly. And by the time we got into the mid-1990s, we were beginning to see the introduction of the targeted therapies that have now become commonplace today.

And then it was around 2000, I think, that we saw the introduction of Gleevec. And I'm reminded always about an editorial written by Dan Longo in The New England Journal a few years ago. And Dan and I were fellows together. We worked side by side on the wards at the clinical center and became very good friends.

And Dan in his role as a deputy editor of The New England Journal wrote an editorial a few years ago that was titled "Gleevec Changed Everything." And Gleevec did change everything. It changed our entire perception of what were the drivers of cancer and how we might be able to control cancer very effectively and potentially put it into long-term remission.

Now, of course, we know now that the whole Gleevec story is more of an exception than a rule in targeted therapy. And, of course, we know that tumors become resistant to targeted therapies. But we couldn't have known any of this back in the early years of oncology because we had no real insight into what caused cancer to grow or progress. And the notion of drug resistance, while we realized that it occurred, we had no idea what the mechanisms were. So it's such a different landscape now than what it used to be. It's quite remarkable.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: So as you tell the story, there's, of course, a lot of focus on technology, whether it's biology and understanding the key features of malignancy or imaging or more. But what I also note in your story and I want to come back to is the people. And I can't help but reflect on where we are in this moment of the COVID-19 pandemic. Yes, we've moved to telemedicine. Everything can be accomplished via technology. And, yet, the human touch is so important.

When we think about being in the room with people, when we think about face to face from the context of career development and your own career, you touched on Dr. Seldin, I think, already from the perspective of internal medicine training. But are there are other mentors or important shapers of your career that you think we should know about?

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Well, probably, the most influential person early in my career in medical school was John Altman. John, you may know, was the inaugural director of the University of Chicago's NCI-designated Cancer Center, which was one of the very first NCI-designated cancer centers in 1973 after the National Cancer Act of 1971 created the cancer centers program.

And John, who was a leading oncologist studying Hodgkin and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, was a faculty member there. He was the director of our cancer center as I said. He took me under his wing even when I was in medical school and served as a real role model and mentor to me.

When I was in my internal medicine training as I mentioned earlier, Don Seldin, the chair of medicine, was never particularly interested in oncology. So, to some extent, I didn't have-- I had great internal medicine training. But I did not have good mentorship in oncology. When I got to the NCI, then my whole world really opened up.

And the two pivotal people there in my career were Bob Young, who was chief of the medicine branch and was my clinical mentor and remains a mentor and friend to this day, and then, of course, Bruce Chabner, who was the chief of the clinical pharmacology branch.

And in my second year of fellowship when we all went into the laboratory, I went into Bruce's lab. And that's where I really got interested in the mechanism of action of anti-cancer drugs and ultimately in drug development and early phase clinical trials. And both Bob and Bruce remain very close to me even today.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: So I'm concerned about time on our call today on our discussion. Because we could obviously fill lots of hours on all of these remarkable experiences and amazing people you worked with. But I'm going to ask that we fast forward a little bit.

You and I share, I think, passion and love for ASCO. So I think that it's reasonable for us to focus a little bit on that for the time we have left here. You didn't start out obviously as chief medical officer at ASCO. But you were a really active ASCO volunteer and leader. Maybe tell us a little bit about some of the ASCO volunteer roles that you engaged in and what that meant to you at the time and how that led to this role.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Well, I'll be brief. I joined ASCO in 1980 at the first moment that I was eligible to join ASCO. I had attended my first ASCO meeting the year before, 1979, when I was still in my fellowship training. And it was clear to me even then when the whole annual meeting was about 2,500 people in two ballrooms in a hotel in New Orleans that that was a community of scholars and physicians that I wanted to be a part of.

And so, over the years, I did what people do even today. I volunteered to participate in whatever ASCO activity I could get involved with. Over the years-- I think I counted it up not too long ago-- I think I served or chaired 10 different ASCO committees, more often serving as a member, but in a number of those committees also serving as the chair over many years.

And as I became more deeply involved in ASCO and saw other opportunities to engage, I had the opportunity to run for election to the board and was-- after a couple of tries was elected to serve on the board and then eventually elected to serve as ASCO president in 2008-2009.

But the attraction of ASCO in many ways was a community of diverse but, in many ways, like-minded people, people who had similar passion and drive and focus. But I think what you get at ASCO in many ways is the wonderful diversity of our field. If you work in a single institution for much of your career as I did and as you did, you get to know that institution pretty well. You get to know its perspectives and its biases and its strengths and its weaknesses.

But there's a whole world of oncology out there. And you can get exposed to that at ASCO because you meet and work with colleagues from every clinical setting, every research setting, people who have remarkable skills and interests and passions. And it's just a wonderful environment to help develop your career. So I consider myself to be extremely fortunate to have had the journey in ASCO that I've had culminating, of course, with ultimately my coming on the staff as ASCO's first chief medical officer.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: We often joke about that blank sheet of paper. But in retrospect, it's very obvious that you had built up that collection of LEGO blocks, and then you assembled them all into the ASCO Research Enterprise, a name you gave it.

And it really, in retrospect, builds, I think, very cleanly upon all of your prior experience, but also the vision that you developed based on that experience for how research should be conducted. Can you maybe share with everybody the scope and vision for the ASCO Research Enterprise, what the intent was, and where you see it going, and what it includes today?

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Sure. I won't claim that I came to ASCO with the whole thing fully developed in my mind. As you said, when I came, I literally did have a blank slate. Allen Lichter, who hired me, said, come on board and help me make ASCO better. And so I, in a sense, reverted to what I knew best how to do, which was clinical research.

And having in my career been a cancer center director, a hem-onc division chief, a cooperative group chair, I had a lot of experience to draw on. And it was obvious to me that ASCO was fundamentally an organization that took in information from various sources, evaluated it, vetted it, collated it, and then disseminated it through our various channels, most notably our meetings and our journals.

But ASCO itself did not contribute to the research enterprise. And that seemed to me to be a lost opportunity. We knew that ASCO had lots of data assets that could be of interest to our members and to the broader cancer community. But they were scattered all around the organization and not particularly well annotated or organized. So we began to collate those. And they are now available to ASCO members on the ASCO data library.

I recognized that we did not have an organized unit in ASCO to support or facilitate or conduct research. So, in 2017, we formed the Center for Research and Analytics and brought together staff who were already working at ASCO but scattered in different departments but all people who had an interest in clinical research or research policy and brought them into this new unit, which has really become the focal point for research work at ASCO.

We recognized that ASCO members for many years were interested in surveying their colleagues, surveying other ASCO members, to help advance research questions. But ASCO actually had a policy that prohibited that.

So that never really made good sense to me. It seemed like a lost opportunity. And we were able to create a program and have the ASCO board approve it whereby any ASCO member could opt in to participate in what we now call the Research Survey Pool.

And in doing so, they are essentially agreeing to participate in research surveys conducted by their colleagues. So that program is now up and running. There are, I think, eight surveys that have been completed or are currently in the field. And this is now a service that ASCO provides through CENTRA to its members to enable them to survey their colleagues for research purposes.

Most importantly, I think we saw an opportunity back in 2014 or 2015 to begin to learn from what our colleagues were doing in clinical practice as they began to deploy precision medicine. And there was a lot of genomic profiling that was going on at that time. It was revealing actionable alterations in roughly 30% or so of the tumors that were profiled.

But there was a lot of difficulty in doctors and patients obtaining the drugs that were thought to be appropriate to treat the cancer at that particular time because most of those drugs would have to be prescribed off label. And there was not a sufficient evidence base to get them reimbursed. And, moreover, even if they could be reimbursed, there was no organized way to collect the patient outcomes and learn from their experiences.

So that led to us developing ASCO's first prospective clinical trial, TAPUR, which really solves both of those problems. Through the participation of the eight pharmaceutical companies that are engaged with us in the study, we are providing-- at one point, it was up to 19 different treatments free of charge to patients.

These are all marketed drugs but used outside of their FDA-approved indications. And we were collecting data on the patients, the genomic profile of cancer, the treatment they received, and their outcomes in a highly organized way.

And so now this is a study that we launched in 2016. We're now almost to 2021. We have more than 3,000 patients who have been registered on the study, meaning consented to participate, more than 2,000 who have been treated on the study. And we are churning out results as quickly as we can about which drugs are used or not useful in the off-label setting for patients whose tumors have a specific genomic profile.

So we built all this infrastructure. And having this in place has also then allowed us to respond rapidly to unmet needs. So when the COVID-19 pandemic overwhelmed all of us, and when our members were looking for information about what was the impact of COVID-19 on their patients, one of the things we were able to do because we had CENTRA, because we had a skilled staff and an infrastructure, was to very quickly stand up the ASCO COVID-19 registry, which we launched in April of this year.

And there are now about 1,000 patients who've enrolled in the registry from around 60 practices that are participating. And we will follow these patients now longitudinally and learn from their experiences what has been the impact of the COVID-19 illness on them and their outcomes, how has it disrupted their cancer care, and ultimately how that impacts their overall cancer treatment outcomes.

So as I now contemplate leaving ASCO after eight years having started with a blank slate, I'm very proud of the fact that I think I'm leaving us with a remarkable infrastructure. We now have a clinical trials network of 124 sites around the country participating in TAPUR that we never had before. We have through the work of CancerLinQ a real-world evidence data generator that is beginning to churn out valuable insights.

We have a capacity to survey ASCO members for research purposes. We have an ability to stand up prospective observational registries to gather information longitudinally about patients and their outcomes. We have a core facility in CENTRA with highly skilled data analysts and statisticians that can support these various research activities.

So ASCO is now primed, I think, to really contribute in a very meaningful way to the gaps in knowledge that will forever exist in oncology just because of the complexity of all the diseases we call cancer. And that's what I mean by the ASCO Research Enterprise. It is in fact remarkable and, I think, powerful enterprise if we continue to use it effectively.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: Well, that's an interesting segue to my next thought, which is really about what comes next. I'll talk about you. But let's start with ASCO first. Your successor, Dr. Julie Gralow, obviously has been announced publicly. She's an accomplished clinician and researcher. She has a known recognized passion for patients, patient advocacy, clinical research through her leadership at SWOG but also health care equity and global oncology.

So from your perspective, having created all of these assets and resources, what advice would you give Dr. Gralow publicly on how to make the position hers, what to take us to next? And I do want to acknowledge for everybody listening that the hints I've been making up until now are that Rich has agreed that he will continue to contribute as a leader to TAPUR for the short term, at least, at least the next year helping Julie get fully oriented to this program and others. So what will your advice be to Julie?

RICHARD SCHILSKY: That's a great question. She's a great selection. And congratulations on hiring her. I think there are two key issues, I think, maybe three. One is to have a broad scope and cast a wide net. Oncology care and cancer research and cancer biology are incredibly complicated and nuanced and broad in scope.

And although Julie is an accomplished breast cancer clinician and researcher, in this role at ASCO, you have to be very broad. You have to understand all of cancer care, all of cancer research, all of policy and advocacy not as an expert in necessarily in any one aspect of ASCO's work, but you have to understand the impact of all of those things on cancer care providers and on cancer patients.

And it's important to always be looking to the future. The future is going to be here before you know it. And we as a professional society have to prepare our members for that future. So that leads me to the second point, which is listen to the members.

The members are the people on the front lines who are delivering care to patients every day. And, fundamentally, ASCO's job is to be sure that our members have all the tools and knowledge and resources that they need to deliver the highest quality care to patients every day. So listening to what they need, what their struggles are, what their burdens are, is extremely important.

And then the third thing I would recommend to her is that she get to know the staff and colleagues that she'll be working with. ASCO has a remarkably accomplished, skilled, motivated, passionate staff, many of whom have been with the organization for years, if not decades, who understand what ASCO can and cannot do and who understand what our members need. And she will be well advised to spend a good portion of her first few months on the job just listening and learning from her colleagues.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: That's always good advice for anybody making a big career move. But, of course, the wisdom you bring to it is palpable and much appreciated. And I'm sure Julie will be taking your advice. And, by the way, so will I continue to do that even after you make your move. So speaking of your retirement, can you share with us a little bit about what it's actually going to look like for you? Is it about family? Or are you still going to have some professional engagement? Again, I suggest that there might be some already, but maybe you could expand on it.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Yeah. I'm still fully focused on my work at ASCO. And, of course, as you know, when I wake up on February 15, I will no longer be ASCO's chief medical officer. And it's going to be a bit of a rude awakening. Fortunately, I will be able to continue my engagement with ASCO through the TAPUR study as you mentioned. I will, of course, forever be at ASCO member and a donor to Conquer Cancer and be willing to serve the society in any way.

I have a number of activities that I've been involved with even throughout my time at ASCO. Not-for-profit boards, for example-- I'm on the board of directors of Friends of Cancer Research. I'm on the board of directors for the Reagan-Udall Foundation for FDA.

I plan to continue with those activities as long as they'll have me. I've been serving the last few years on the board also of the EORTC, the large European cooperative clinical research group. And I expect to continue in that role.

Beyond that, I will see what opportunities come my way. I think one of the things about retirement if you will that I'm looking forward to is the opportunity to pick and choose what to work on based on what interests me without having the burdens of having a full-time job.

On the personal front, of course, we're all looking forward to crawling out from the pandemic. I've basically been locked in my home outside Chicago since March. And I'm looking forward to getting back out to a little bit of a social life. As you know, I have two grown daughters and now three grandchildren, two of whom are in Atlanta, one of whom is near by us in the Chicago area. So looking forward to spending time with them as well.

So it will be a change for me to be sure after working as hard as-- I feel like I've worked for really now 45 years since I graduated from medical school. But I also feel like I'm not quite done yet and that I still have ways in which I can contribute. I just feel like at this point, maybe it's time for me to choose how I want to make those contributions and spend a little bit more time doing some other things.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: Well, both you and my predecessor, Allen Lichter, are modeling something, have modeled something, that I think is not often discussed but can be very important. For people and for institutions, change is not a bad thing. And setting the expectation that you will pour your heart and soul into something but not necessarily do it alone or forever and not prevent others from taking that role at some point, that's a really-- I think it's a selfless kind of sacrifice in a way.

Because, of course, you could stay and do what you're doing for longer. But as you and I have discussed, there is a value for all of us collectively in having fresh eyes and new people take organizations in a new direction. That's how I ended up here frankly. And I think that's the kind of opportunity you're creating right now, something that should be celebrated in my opinion.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Well, thanks. And I couldn't agree more. When I look back at the arc of my career and having all the different kinds of leadership roles that I've had, I basically have made a job change every 8 to 10 years. I was the director of our cancer center for nearly 10 years. I was associate dean for clinical research at the University of Chicago for eight years, another position that I created from a blank slate at that institution.

The exception was serving 15 years as a CALGB group chair. But that was a position I really loved and enjoyed and felt like at the end of the first 10 I hadn't quite accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish.

But the point is that I think it is both necessary for organizations to have regular leadership change. And it's also refreshing for us as individuals. There gets to a point where you feel like you can do your job in your sleep. And I actually think that's a good time to make a change.

Because if that's the way you feel, you're not being sufficiently challenged. And you're probably not being sufficiently creative. And so it's a good time to move on and refresh your own activities and give your organization a chance to bring in someone to hopefully build on whatever you've created and bring it to the next level.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: Well, I agree with all that, although I think your comment there about doing the job in your sleep would not apply because I'm pretty confident that the environment and opportunities have continued to evolve in a way that has made it interesting from beginning to end. But you don't have to rebut me on that. I just want to thank you very, very much, Rich.

As we set up this podcast, I expected that we would have a really fun and enlightening conversation. And, of course, you did not disappoint. We could talk for much, much longer if we only had the time.

On a personal note to you and for the benefit of our listeners, I want to share that Rich has been for me a remarkable friend and mentor and colleague. I first met Rich at the very beginning of my career when my mentor, Larry Norton, pushed me out from Memorial into the larger world. And he did that first and primarily through ASCO and the Cancer and Leukemia Group. Those are really the two places where I was exposed to the world.

And through the CALGB, Rich really began to offer me and others, many others, opportunities that shaped careers plural, mine and others. So when I got to ASCO as CEO, Rich was there. And I knew I could always depend on you to be clearheaded, intellectually precise, constructive, visionary. And the thing about you, Rich, is that you never would say yes to anything unless you knew for sure you could do it and indeed, I think, how you could do it.

I always share this story which your staff at CENTRA pointed out to me. And I have to admit that I hadn't picked it up myself. But in all the years of now working down the hall from Rich, probably hundreds and hundreds of hours of meetings, he never has taken a note in front of me. And, yet, everything we talk about, every action item we conclude to pursue, they all get done.

So I don't know, Rich. You have a remarkable way of organizing your thoughts and your plans, keeping it together, and getting things done. And I'm going to miss that tremendously in the years ahead.

So, Rich, I want to say congratulations. Congratulations on reaching this really important milestone in your life. Thank you on behalf of ASCO and the broader oncology community and the patients we care for and their families for making the world a better place. And just as a small thing, thank you for joining me today for this ASCO in Action podcast.

RICHARD SCHILSKY: Thank you, Cliff. It's been great.

CLIFFORD HUDIS: And, for all of you, if you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And, while you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The ASCO in Action podcast is just one of ASCO's many podcasts. You can find all of the shows at podcast.asco.org. Until next time, thank you for listening to this ASCO in Action podcast.

In the latest ASCO in Action podcast, ASCO CEO Dr. Clifford A. Hudis shares a quick preview of what's to come for the 2020 ASCO Advocacy Summit and Week of Action, which will take place September 14-18.

Typically, ASCO volunteers from across the country gather in Washington, D.C. to advocate for policies that will improve access to high-quality, equitable care for people with cancer and ensure robust funding for cancer research through in-person meetings with their Members of Congress. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the 2020 ASCO Advocacy Summit will be a virtual event, but participants can expect the same important advocacy and education opportunities that the event provides every year. All ASCO members are encouraged to participate in the Congressional Week of Action by signing up with the ACT Network (through the Advocacy Center on ASCO.org).

Subscribe to the ASCO in Action podcast through iTunes and Google Play.

 

Transcript

Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Dr. Clifford Hudis: Welcome to the ASCO in Action Podcast, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of 9 programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all of the shows, including this one, at “Podcast dot ASCO dot org” (podcast.asco.org)

The ASCO in Action Podcast is ASCO’s podcast series that explores the policy and practice issues that impact oncologists, the entire cancer care delivery team, and the individuals we care for—people with cancer.

I’m Dr. Clifford Hudis, CEO of ASCO and the host of the ASCO in Action podcast series. For this podcast, I wanted to share with listeners a preview of the 2020 ASCO Advocacy Summit and Week of Action taking place September 14-18.

Typically, ASCO gathers volunteer advocates in Washington, D.C., in September for education sessions and in-person meetings with their Members of Congress.

Due to the COVID-19 pandemic—like so many events scheduled to take place this year—the 2020 ASCO Advocacy Summit will be a virtual event, but that said, participants can expect the same advocacy and education opportunities that the event provides every year.

ASCO volunteers will meet with Members of Congress and their staff by phone or video to advocate for policies that will improve access to high-quality, equitable care for people with cancer and ensure robust funding for cancer research.

Advocacy Summit attendees will also attend webinars to receive education and training on lobbying Congress and the current political landscape.

What is different this year is our online Week of Action, which will give all ASCO members an opportunity to advocate on critical issues of great importance to the cancer care delivery system in the United States.

Participants in the Week of Action will amplify the Advocacy Summit’s messages through email and social media messages to Members of Congress using ASCO’s ACT Network. And, it’s easy to get involved and make your voice heard. You just need to click on the link to the ACT Network in the Advocacy Center on ASCO.org and sign up to receive ASCO ACT Network emails. Then, you’ll get all the information on the fastest and easiest ways to contact lawmakers delivered directly to your inbox. We hope you will participate as much as you can—the effort will take just minutes. Even one message a day by every ASCO member to your representatives in Congress will have a tremendous impact.

During the virtual Advocacy Summit, which will be held in the middle of the Week of Action on September 16, ASCO volunteer advocates will have their virtual meetings with Members of Congress and their staff. The three issues or “legislative asks” that they will be discussing will be the same asks that ASCO members will contact their Members of Congress about during the Week of Action.

One, we will ask Congress to support legislation—The CLINICAL TREATMENT Act, which will give all Medicaid beneficiaries coverage of routine costs when enrolled in clinical trials—coverage Medicare and private insurance plans already provide. The importance of improving health equity has become even more apparent during the COVID-19 pandemic, and this legislation takes us one step closer to that goal.

Two, ASCO volunteer advocates will request lawmakers to co-sponsor the Safe Step Act, which will help protect patients from harmful step therapy protocols, which ASCO believes is never appropriate in the treatment of cancer.

And three, we’ll address the impact COVID-19 has had on cancer practices and research. Specifically, advocates will ask Congress to endorse maintaining reimbursement flexibilities for telehealth, as many oncology practices have rapidly transitioned to telehealth to ensure patients continued receiving treatment during the pandemic.  We’ll also be asking Congress to provide emergency funding to the National Institutes of Health to mitigate disruptions caused to labs and clinical trials by COVID-19, and to restart research across the county.

These are the same issues that participants in the Week of Action will be advocating for all week long in their outreach to Congress.

The goals of the Advocacy Summit and Week of Action are to advance priority legislation, amplify the collective voice of the cancer care community on Capitol Hill, and to get ASCO members involved in advocacy initiatives.

Members of Congress and their staff have grown accustomed to virtual constituent meetings, and personal stories continue to be the most effective form of advocacy, so the Advocacy Summit and Week of Action—even virtually—remain critical to ASCO’s larger advocacy efforts.

In addition to the meetings and messages between advocates and lawmakers, the ASCO Advocate of the Year and the Congressional Champion for Cancer Care will be named during the Advocacy Summit.

In closing today, I encourage everyone listening today to follow the Advocacy Summit through social media by way of the hashtag ASCO Advocacy Summit (#ASCOAdvocacySummit) on Twitter AND to participate in the Week of Action through the ACT Network.

A link to the ACT Network and all the information you’ll need to participate in the Week of Action is available at ASCO dot org slash ASCO Action (www.asco.org/ascoaction).

Until next time, thank you for listening to this ASCO in Action podcast and if you enjoyed what you heard today, don’t forget to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and while you are there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

The ASCO in Action Podcast is just one of ASCO’s many podcasts; you can find all of the shows at “Podcast dot ASCO dot org” (podcast.asco.org).

ASCO President Lori J. Pierce, MD, FASTRO, FASCO, joins ASCO CEO Dr. Clifford A. Hudis in the latest ASCO in Action podcast to discuss how her childhood inspired her to become an oncologist and how the theme of her presidential year, “Equity: Every Patient. Every Day. Everywhere.” is more important than ever as the country responds to a healthcare pandemic that is disproportionately impacting people of color.

“Every patient, no matter who they are, deserves high-quality care and every patient has the right to equitable care,” says Dr. Pierce. “We have to get to the root causes to understand the barriers that patients face if we’re going to really make a difference, so it’s important to me that equity be front and center of everything that we do."

Subscribe to the ASCO in Action podcast through iTunes and Google Play.

 

American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO) CEO Dr. Clifford A. Hudis is joined by Dr. Piyush Srivastava, the past chair of ASCO’s Clinical Practice Committee, in the newest ASCO in Action Podcast to discuss the recently released ASCO Special Report: A Guide to Cancer Care Delivery During the COVID-19 Pandemic. Dr. Srivastava was instrumental in developing the report, which provides detailed guidance to oncology practices on the immediate and short-term steps that should be taken to protect the safety of patients and healthcare staff before resuming more routine care operations during the COVID-19 public health crisis.

Subscribe to the ASCO in Action podcast through iTunes and Google Play.

 

Dr. Tanya Thomas and Dr. Aparna Jotwani join the podcast to discuss the new Oncology Nursing Society and American Society of Clinical Oncology evidence-based guideline on the management of antineoplastic extravasation. They discuss recommendations from the expert panel on: management of extravasation of vesicant or irritant with vesicant properties antineoplastic agents, management of extravasation of paclitaxel or docetaxel, use & duration of thermal compress, and escalation of care. They share the importance of this comprehensive interdisciplinary guideline, highlight the algorithm as a useful tool for clinicians, and outline the outstanding questions related to the management of extravasation.

Read the full guideline, “ONS/ASCO Guideline on the Management of Antineoplastic Extravasation” at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines

TRANSCRIPT

This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors’ disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the JCO Oncology Practice, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/OP-25-00579 

Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO’s podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts.

My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I’m interviewing Dr. Tanya Thomas, clinical chair of the guideline and clinical nurse specialist from University of Virginia Health, and Dr. Aparna Jotwani, medical oncologist from Baylor College of Medicine, authors on "Management of Antineoplastic Extravasation: Oncology Nursing Society – American Society of Clinical Oncology Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Thomas and Dr. Jotwani.

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: Thank you.

Dr. Tanya Thomas: Thank you for having us.

Brittany Harvey: And then before we discuss this guideline, I’d like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Thomas and Dr. Jotwani, who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in JCO Oncology Practice, which is linked in the show notes.

So then to dive into the content here, Dr. Thomas, could you start us off by providing an overview of both the scope and the objectives of this guideline?

Dr. Tanya Thomas: Yes, so the objective of this guideline is to provide the evidence-based recommendations to help support our interdisciplinary teams, including the oncologist, the advanced practice providers, pharmacists, and nurses who are involved in the care and management of patients who are experiencing an extravasation of an antineoplastic agent. While rare, the antineoplastic and certain chemotherapy extravasations are oncologic emergencies. The recommendations are to minimize negative consequences and provide a standardized approach to the care when such an event occurs.

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: I would add that our scope is limited to intravenous antineoplastic vesicants, irritants, and irritants with vesicant potential. The scope of the guideline applies to the care team for adult oncology patients receiving treatments through venous access. Outside the scope is management of extravasation during other routes of treatment administration, such as intraperitoneal, intravesical, and hepatic arterial infusion. Our recommendations regarding vascular access for therapy or interventions to prevent extravasations are also outside of the scope for this guideline.

Brittany Harvey: Understood. I appreciate that background and understanding what’s in scope and what’s out of scope for this guideline.

So then I’d like to pivot and talk about the key recommendations of this guideline across the clinical questions. So first, Dr. Jotwani, what does the panel recommend for patients with extravasation of vesicant or irritant with vesicant properties antineoplastic agents?

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: The panel strongly recommends for all classes where an antidote exists to proceed with using the antidote. Recommendations for paclitaxel and docetaxel are specifically addressed in a recommendation. This is further detailed in Tables 1 and 4 within the guideline. Evidence on the use of antidotes for extravasation is limited to nonrandomized, uncontrolled, observational studies and case series. Placebo-controlled trials on this topic would be unethical. There is also a lack of comparative data for different antidote strategies. However, potential benefits of using the antidotes include tissue preservation and avoiding tissue necrosis. In developing the guidelines, we had an in-person roundtable discussion and weighed risks and benefits to ensure patient safety above all else.

Brittany Harvey: I appreciate that description of the recommendation here. So then you just mentioned that there’s a specific recommendation for paclitaxel and docetaxel. So what is recommended for those patients with extravasation of paclitaxel or docetaxel?

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: So here, we conditionally recommended the specific use of hyaluronidase as the antidote. This was based on five studies that all used hyaluronidase as an antidote to lower the risk of tissue necrosis. In the studies included, with a subgroup of patients that experienced taxane-related extravasation, development of necrosis ranged from 0% to 0.83% among the patients who received an antidote. The potential harms associated with this were likely trivial.

Brittany Harvey: Thank you for providing that recommendation as well.

So then the next section of the guideline, Dr. Thomas, what does the expert panel recommend for use and duration of thermal compress?

Dr. Tanya Thomas: So the expert panel actually recommends the use of thermal compresses, and the recommendations are based on the available literature for the various agents and the actual time frames most frequently used for the compress application. The utilization of a thermal compress is recommended for 15 to 20 minutes at a time for 3 to 4 times daily, at least for the first 48 to 72 hours after that extravasation occurs. The actual frequency and duration may vary based on the extent of the extravasation and the agent involved in that extravasation. The intent of the warm compress is to help disperse the agent and reduce the localized accumulation of the agent, whereas the cold compress, it actually helps prevent the dispersion or the spread of the agent while allowing the antidote to help neutralize that agent.

Warm compresses are recommended for extravasations involving the vinca alkaloids, etoposide, oxaliplatin, and the taxanes - paclitaxel and docetaxel - only when coadministering the antidote hyaluronidase. The use of a cold compress is actually recommended for extravasations involving the anthracyclines, antimetabolites, alkylating agents, and taxanes when coadministration of the antidote hyaluronidase does not occur.

Brittany Harvey: Understood. Those specific and actionable recommendations are really key for clinical practice.

So then, following those recommendations, how does the guideline address escalation of care and surgical referral for patients with central line extravasation?

Dr. Tanya Thomas: So this topic actually had a lot of discussion. And while there is not enough evidence to make strong recommendations, the expert panel recognized that surgical referrals should be considered in certain scenarios.

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: We discussed that certain scenarios would include high-risk populations, such as patients that are receiving DNA-binding vesicants, those with high-volume estimated extravasation, and those with CTCAE grade 2, which would be erythema associated with symptoms such as edema, pain, induration, and phlebitis, or grade 3, which would be symptoms of ulceration or necrosis or concern for severe tissue damage, or grade 4, where you would have a life-threatening consequence extravasation, may have a greater likelihood of benefiting from surgical referral and/or escalation of care as deemed appropriate.

Brittany Harvey: Great. And yes, it’s really important to provide all of these recommendations that you’ve both just gone through, even when we’re faced with very low evidence.

So then, Dr. Thomas, in your view, what is the importance of this guideline, and how will it impact clinical practice?

Dr. Tanya Thomas: So when extravasations occur in the clinical setting, members of the interdisciplinary team can be faced with barriers related to where to look for the information, how to find all the relevant information in one concise place, how to provide education to the patient about how to care for the site of extravasation in the home setting, and also when to escalate to specialized teams. This can actually cause some added stress and anxiety, and in certain circumstances, may lead to delays in efficient management.

This guideline provides the resource clinicians have been looking for. It includes comprehensive recommendations for antineoplastic extravasations in one guideline while also providing a one-page algorithm with the key information regarding the management of the extravasations. This allows all levels of providers to have evidence-based recommendations regarding initial management of the extravasation, for instance, how to manage the infusion, key site assessment reminders, available antidotes, and the use of thermal compress; the required documentation, recommended follow-up scheduling, in addition to key aspects of the patient education. This type of guidance is not found in any other single document regarding antineoplastic extravasation. Having this document readily available at the point of care potentially can reduce time required for providers to search for management recommendations and also provide consistency in patient education and follow-up management scheduling. It reduces uncertainty within interdisciplinary teams and can help inform policy development for clinicians to approach extravasations with confidence.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. I agree that this is an incredible resource for clinicians with the recommendations, the algorithm that you mentioned, and the supporting evidence that underpins these recommendations to really provide both efficient and effective care for patients.

So beyond the impact for clinical practice, Dr. Jotwani, how will these guideline recommendations affect patients receiving antineoplastic treatment for cancer?

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: Exactly. In addition to the clinical care team, we want to help and benefit our patients. So, oncology patients that experience extravasations are at risk for, aside of the side effects of tissue necrosis and infection, they also are at risk for delay of cancer treatment. In making these guidelines, we kept in mind the cost and the efforts for patients, additional visits that they could incur, additional time and supplies for care of the extravasation, as well as cost. Our guideline aims to provide an evidence-based approach to the care of oncology patients receiving antineoplastic intravenous therapy. While there are gaps in the data due to the nature of these events, based on careful literature review, these guidelines serve as a basis for quality, standardized oncology care during extravasation. Personally, I hope our graphics especially can be used across the systems to guide clinical care.

Brittany Harvey: Definitely. We hope that these recommendations improve treatment and treatment outcomes for all patients receiving antineoplastic treatment for cancer.

So then you’ve also just mentioned some gaps in the literature. So Dr. Thomas, I’d like to turn to you to wrap us up and ask, what are the outstanding questions for the management of antineoplastic extravasation?

Dr. Tanya Thomas: Yes, that’s a good question. Two of the main outstanding questions are related to the management of extravasations involving the novel agents and extravasations involving multi-agent regimens. The current literature regarding how to effectively manage the multi-agent regimens, for instance, there is no clear guidance for managing the extravasation for someone who is receiving a regimen that involves simultaneous administration of, let’s say, a vinca alkaloid and an anthracycline. One of those agents requires a warm compress while the other requires a cold compress, and there are different antidotes for those two agents.

Additionally, there has not been a lot of published information on the impact of extravasation of those novel agents like the antibody-drug conjugates. With the pace of the drug development, a subgroup of the guideline panelists actually are exploring case reports specific to novel agents to help inform some future work.

Brittany Harvey: Yes, we’ll look forward to learning more about how to address these ongoing issues and potentially impact guideline recommendations in the future as well.

So I want to thank you both so much for your work to develop this incredibly important guideline, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Thomas and Dr. Jotwani.

Dr. Aparna Jotwani: Thank you for the opportunity.

Dr. Tanya Thomas: Yes, thank you.

Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. I also encourage you to check out the companion episode on this guideline on the ONS podcast, available on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube Music.

And finally, you can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

 

Dr. Kathleen Horst, Dr. Rachel Jimenez, and Dr. Yara Abdou discuss the updated guideline from ASTRO, ASCO, and SSO on postmastectomy radiation therapy. They share new and updated recommendations on topics including PMRT after upfront surgery, PMRT after neoadjuvant systemic therapy, dose and fractionation schedules, and delivery techniques. They comment on the importance of a multidisciplinary approach and providing personalized care based on individual patient characteristics. Finally, they review ongoing research that may impact these evidence-based guidelines in the future.

Read the full guideline, “Postmastectomy Radiation Therapy: An ASTRO-ASCO-SSO Clinical Practice Guideline” at www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines"

TRANSCRIPT

This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors’ disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-01747 

Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts.

My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Kathleen Horst, expert panel chair from Stanford University; Dr. Rachel Jimenez, expert panel vice chair from Massachusetts General Hospital; and Dr. Yara Abdou, ASCO representative from the University of North Carolina, authors on "Postmastectomy Radiation Therapy: An American Society for Radiation Oncology, American Society of Clinical Oncology, and Society of Surgical Oncology Clinical Practice Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Horst, Dr. Jimenez, and Dr. Abdou.

Dr. Kathleen Horst: Thank you for having us.

Brittany Harvey: And then just before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Horst, Dr. Jimenez, and Dr. Abdou who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes.

Then to dive into the content that we are here today to talk about, Dr. Horst, could you start us off by describing what prompted the update for this joint guideline between ASTRO, ASCO, and SSO, and what is the scope of this 2025 guideline on postmastectomy radiation therapy?

Dr. Kathleen Horst: Thank you. This joint guideline was last updated in 2016. Over the past decade, the treatment of breast cancer has evolved substantially. Newer systemic therapy regimens have increasingly personalized treatment based on tumor biology, and local therapy management has explored both the de-escalation of axillary surgery and more abbreviated courses of radiation therapy. Given these advances, it was important to revisit the role of postmastectomy radiotherapy in this modern era of breast cancer therapy.

This updated guideline addresses four key questions, including postmastectomy radiation therapy after upfront surgery as well as after neoadjuvant systemic therapy. It also reviews the evolving role of various dose and fractionation schedules and optimal treatment techniques and dose constraints.

Brittany Harvey: Excellent. I appreciate that background, Dr. Horst. So then, next, Dr. Jimenez, I would like to review the recommendations of this guideline across those four key questions that Dr. Horst just mentioned. So first, what does the panel recommend for PMRT for patients who received initial treatment with mastectomy?

Dr. Rachel Jimenez: The panel provided pretty strong consensus that patients with positive lymph nodes or patients with large tumors involving the skin or the chest wall should receive postmastectomy radiation. However, the panel also recognized that the omission of postmastectomy radiation may be appropriate for select patients who have positive lymph nodes and have an axillary lymph node dissection if they have a low nodal burden and other favorable clinical or pathologic features. For patients without lymph node involvement at the time of surgery and no involvement of the skin or chest wall, postmastectomy radiation was not advised by the panel.

Brittany Harvey: Understood. It is helpful to understand those recommendations for that patient population. Following that, Dr. Abdou, what are the key recommendations for PMRT for patients who received neoadjuvant systemic therapy before mastectomy?

Dr. Yara Abdou: When we think about PMRT after neoadjuvant treatment, the key point is that the initial stage of presentation still matters a lot. So for example, if a patient comes in with more advanced disease, say a large primary tumor, like a clinical T4, or more extensive nodal disease, like an N2 or N3 disease, those patients should get PMRT, no matter how well they respond to neoadjuvant therapy, because we know it reduces the risk of recurrence and that has been shown pretty consistently.

On the other hand, if there are still positive lymph nodes after neoadjuvant treatment, basically residual nodal disease, PMRT is also strongly recommended because the risk of local-regional recurrence is much higher in that setting. The gray area is the group of patients who start with a lower burden of nodal disease, such as N1 disease, but then become node negative at surgery. For those patients, we tend to individualize the decision. So if the patient is young or has triple-negative disease, or if there is a lot of residual disease in the breast even though the nodes are cleared, then radiation is probably helpful. But if everything has melted away with pCR in both the breast and the nodes, then it may be safe to omit PMRT in those patients.

For patients with smaller tumors and no nodal involvement to begin with, like a clinical T1-T2 N0, if they are still node negative after neoadjuvant treatment, then PMRT is generally not recommended because their baseline recurrence risk is low.

And finally, if the margins are positive and cannot be re-excised, then PMRT is recommended after neoadjuvant therapy.

Brittany Harvey: Yes, those distinctions are important for appropriate patient selection.

So then, Dr. Horst, we have just reviewed the indications for PMRT, but for those patients who receive PMRT, what are the appropriate treatment volumes and dose fractionation regimens?

Dr. Kathleen Horst: The guideline addresses coverage of the chest wall and regional nodes with a specific discussion of the data regarding internal mammary nodal irradiation, which has been an area of controversy over many years. The guideline also reviews the data exploring moderate hypofractionation, or shorter courses of radiation therapy. The task force recommends utilizing moderate hypofractionation for the majority of women requiring postmastectomy radiation, which is likely to have a large impact on clinical practice. This recommendation is based on the evolving data demonstrating that a 3-week course of radiotherapy after mastectomy provides similar oncologic outcomes and minimal toxicity for most patients compared to the standard 5-week treatment course.

Brittany Harvey: Thank you for reviewing that set of recommendations as well.

So then, Dr. Jimenez, to wrap us up on the key questions here, what delivery techniques are recommended for treating patients who receive PMRT?

Dr. Rachel Jimenez: So this portion of the guideline is likely to be most helpful for radiation oncologists because it represents the most technical part of the guideline, but we do believe that it offers some important guidance that has, to this point, been lacking in the postmastectomy radiation setting.

So first, the panel recommends that all patients should undergo 3-dimensional radiation planning using CAT scan based imaging, and this includes contouring. So contouring refers to the explicit identification, using a drawing interface on the CAT scan imaging, by the radiation oncologist to identify the areas that are targeted to receive radiation, as well as all of the nearby normal tissues that could receive unintended radiation exposure. And we also provide radiation oncologists in the guideline with suggestions about how much dose each target tissue should receive and what the dose limits should be for normal tissues.

Additionally, we make some recommendations regarding the manner in which radiation is delivered. So for example, we advise that when conventional radiation methods are not sufficient for covering the areas of the body that are still at risk for cancer, or where too high of a dose of radiation would be anticipated to a normal part of the body, that providers employ a technique called intensity modulated radiation therapy, or IMRT. And if IMRT is going to be used, we also advise regular 3-dimensional imaging assessments of the patient's body relative to the treatment machine to ensure treatment fidelity.

When the treatments are delivered, we further advise using a deep inspiration breath-hold technique, which lowers the exposure to the heart and to the lungs when there is concern for cardiopulmonary radiation exposure, and again, that image guidance be used along with real-time monitoring of the patient's anatomy when those techniques are employed.

And then finally, we advise that patients receiving postmastectomy radiation utilize a bolus, or a synthetic substance placed on the patient's skin to enhance radiation dose to the superficial tissue, only when there is involvement of the skin with cancer or other high-risk features of the cancer, but not for every patient who receives postmastectomy radiation.

Brittany Harvey: Understood. And then, yes, you just mentioned that section of the guideline is probably most helpful for radiation oncologists, but I think you can all comment on this next question. What should all clinicians, including radiation oncologists, surgical oncologists, medical oncologists, and other oncologic professionals, know as they implement all of these updated recommendations?

Dr. Rachel Jimenez: So I think one of the things that is most important when we consider postmastectomy radiation and making recommendations is that this is a multidisciplinary panel and that we would expect and encourage our colleagues, as they interpret the guidelines, to employ a multidisciplinary approach when they are discussing each individual patient with their surgical and medical oncology colleagues, that there is no one size fits all. So these guidelines are intended to provide some general guidance around the most appropriate techniques and approaches and recommendations for the utilization of postmastectomy radiation, but that we recognize that all of these recommendations should be individualized for patients and also represent somewhat of a moving target as additional studies, both in the surgical and radiation oncology realm as well as in the systemic therapy realm, enter our milieu, we have to adjust those recommendations accordingly.

Dr. Kathleen Horst: Yeah, I would agree, and I wanted to comment as a radiation oncologist, we recognize that local-regional considerations are intertwined with systemic therapy considerations. So as the data evolve, it is critical to have these ongoing updates in a cross-disciplinary manner to ensure optimal care for our patients. And as Dr. Jimenez mentioned, these multidisciplinary discussions are critical for all of us to continue to learn and understand the evolving recommendations across disciplines but also to individualize them according to individual patients.

Dr. Yara Abdou: I could not agree more. I think from a medical oncology perspective, systemic therapy has gotten much better with adjuvant CDK4/6 inhibitors, T-DM1, capecitabine, and immune therapy. So these are all newer adjuvant therapies, so the baseline recurrence risks are lower than what they were in the trials that established PMRT. So the absolute benefit of radiation varies more now, so smaller for favorable biology but still relevant in aggressive subtypes or with residual disease. So it is definitely not a one-size-fits-all.

Brittany Harvey: Yes, I think it is important that you have all highlighted that multidisciplinary approach and having individualized, patient-centric care.

So then, expanding on that just a little bit, Dr. Abdou, how will these guideline recommendations affect patients with breast cancer?

Dr. Yara Abdou: So basically, reiterating what we just talked about, these guidelines really move us towards personalized care. So for patients at higher risk, so those with larger tumors, multiple positive nodes, or residual nodal disease after neoadjuvant therapy, PMRT remains essential, consistently lowering local-regional recurrence and improving survival.

But for patients at intermediate or lower risk, the recommendations support a more selective approach. So instead of a blanket rule, we now integrate tumor biology, response to systemic therapy, and individual patient factors to decide when PMRT adds meaningful benefit. So the impact for patients is really important because those at high risk continue to get the survival advantage of radiation while others can be spared the unnecessary treatment and side effects. So in short, we are aligning PMRT with modern systemic therapy and biology, making sure each patient receives the right treatment for their situation.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. Individualizing treatment to every patient will make sure that everyone can achieve the best outcomes as possible.

So then, Dr. Jimenez, to wrap us up, I believe Dr. Horst mentioned earlier that data continues to evolve in this field. So in your opinion, what are the outstanding questions regarding the use of PMRT and what are you looking to for the future of research in this space?

Dr. Rachel Jimenez: So there are a number of randomized phase III clinical trials that are either in active accrual or that have reported but not yet published that are exploring further de-escalation of postmastectomy radiation and of axillary surgery. And so we do not yet have sufficient data to understand how those two pieces of information integrate with each other. So for example, if you have a patient who has a positive lymph node at the time of diagnosis and forgoes axillary surgery aside from a sentinel lymph node biopsy, we do not yet know that we can also safely forgo radiation entirely in that setting. So we expect that future studies are going to address these questions and understand when it is appropriate to simultaneously de-escalate surgery and radiation.

Additionally, there is a number of trials that are looking at ways in which radiation could be omitted or shortened. So there is the RT CHARM trial, which has reported but not yet published, looking at a shorter course of radiation. And so we do make recommendations around that shorter course of radiation in this guideline, but we anticipate that the additional data from the RT CHARM study will provide further evidence in support of that.

Additionally, there is a study called the TAILOR RT trial, which looks at forgoing postmastectomy radiation in patients who, to Dr. Abdou's point, have a favorable tumor biology and a low 21-gene recurrence score. And so we are going to anticipate the results from that study to help guide who can selectively forgo postmastectomy radiation when they fall into that favorable risk category.

So there are a number of questions that I think will help flesh out this guideline. And as they publish, we will likely publish a focused update on that information to help provide context for our colleagues in the field and clarify some of these recommendations to suit the latest data.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. We will look forward to those de-escalation trials and ongoing research in the field to build on the evidence and look for future updates to this guideline.

So I want to thank you for your work to update these guidelines, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Horst, Dr. Jimenez, and Dr. Abdou.

Dr. Rachel Jimenez: Thank you.

Dr. Yara Abdou: Thank you.

Dr. Kathleen Horst: Thank you.

Brittany Harvey: And then finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

 

Dr. Cris Bergerot and Dr. Enrique Soto join the podcast to discuss the new global guideline on geriatric assessment. This guideline provides evidence-based, resource-stratified recommendations across the basic, limited, and enhanced settings. Dr. Bergerot and Dr. Soto discuss who should receive a geriatric assessment, the role of geriatric assessment, which elements of geriatric assessment can help predict adverse outcomes, and how a geriatric assessment is used to guide care and make treatment decisions. They comment on the importance of this guideline worldwide, and the impact of this guideline for a wide range of clinicians, patients, researchers, policymakers, and health administrators.  

Read the full guideline, “Geriatric Assessment: ASCO Global Guideline” at www.asco.org/global-guidelines."

TRANSCRIPT

This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/global-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline, view clinical tools and resources, and review authors’ disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the JCO Global Oncology,       https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/GO-25-00276      

Brittany Harvey: Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO’s podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I’m interviewing Dr. Cris Bergerot from OncoClínicas & Co and Dr. Enrique Soto from the University of Colorado, co-chairs on “Geriatric Assessment: ASCO Global Guideline”.

Thank you for being here today, Dr. Bergerot and Dr. Soto.

Dr. Cris Bergerot: Thank you.

Dr. Enrique Soto: Thanks for the invitation, Brittany.

Brittany Harvey: And then before we discuss this guideline, I’d like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Bergerot and Dr. Soto who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in JCO Global Oncology, which is linked in the show notes.

So then to jump into the guideline here, Dr. Soto, could you start by providing an overview of the scope and the purpose of this global guideline on geriatric assessment?

Dr. Enrique Soto: Of course, Brittany. So, this guideline comes from a request from the global oncology community and from the geriatric oncology community, who is very interested in making sure that geriatric oncology recommendations that are used in the United States can be adopted and used globally. So, this was a very highly rated topic when we had our call for proposals for guidelines, and that’s why we decided to do this.

The idea of this guideline is to provide resource-stratified recommendations for the use of geriatric assessments and interventions in older adults with cancer across different settings, right? And that these guidelines can be applied by clinicians working in low- and middle-income countries, but also, in a way, by clinicians working in community settings where the availability of resources may be limited. And the idea of these recommendations is to help clinicians evaluate older people with cancer better and also understand which interventions can be implemented with the resources they have and which interventions have a bigger bang for the buck, so to speak.

And as all evidence-based, stratified guidelines that ASCO conducts, we stratified resources as basic, limited, or enhanced. And that means resources that go from those that provide the greatest benefits for patients in terms of outcomes to those that are evidence-based but provide additional additive benefits. And those resource-stratified recommendations can be found in the ASCO website as to how these guidelines are developed, and that’s pretty standard for most resource-stratified guidelines.

Brittany Harvey: Great. I appreciate that background and the impetus for this guideline, and thank you for providing that resource-stratified framework of basic, limited, and enhanced. I think that helps provide context for the guideline recommendations here.

So then, Dr. Bergerot, I’d like to next review the key recommendations of this guideline across the four clinical questions that the guideline addresses. So, across those settings, the basic, limited, and enhanced settings, what is the role of geriatric assessment in older adults with cancer to inform specific interventions?

Dr. Cris Bergerot: I think this is one of the most important points, so let’s break it down. First off, who should actually receive the geriatric assessment? And the recommendation is clear. All patients aged 65 and older who are being considered for systemic cancer therapy should undergo a geriatric assessment. Now, depending on the available resources, for example, in basic setting, a quick screening may be enough, but in enhanced setting, a comprehensive geriatric assessment is encouraged.

And for our next question, in which elements of the geriatric assessment can help predict poor outcomes, the core domains to focus on include things like physical function, comorbidities, polypharmacy, cognition, nutrition, social support, and psychological health. And there are also validate tools like the G8, the CGA, and the CARG that can be used depending on the setting and resources available.

Now, talking about how we actually use the geriatric assessment to guide care, the assessment results can guide interventions to reduce treatment-related toxicities and maintain the patient functions. So, even in basic settings, the result can help guide those adjustments or identify the need for supportive care. And in more resource settings, we can implement more tailored intervention based on those findings.

And finally, for our fourth question: How can geriatric assessment help guide treatment decisions? So, GA can influence decisions about how aggressive treatment should be, help clarify goals of care, and determine whether a curative or palliative approach makes the most sense. And again, even in settings with limited resources, a simplified GA can still provide meaningful guidance.

Brittany Harvey: Great. Thank you, Dr. Bergerot, for that high-level overview of the recommendations of this guideline.

So then, following that, Dr. Soto, which geriatric assessment tools and elements should clinicians use to predict adverse outcomes for older patients receiving systemic therapy across the basic, limited, and enhanced settings?

Dr. Enrique Soto: Yeah, so that is an excellent question because it’s something that people want to know, right? When people start developing a geriatric oncology clinic, one of the first things they want to know is which tools should I use. And we hope that this guideline will provide some clarity regarding this. So, our overarching recommendation is that every patient, regardless of the level of resources, should receive some sort of geriatric assessment. And that geriatric assessment can go from a simple screening tool, such as the G8 tool, which is available online and very easy to do, and that can be done in basic settings, to a more sophisticated geriatric assessment.

The important thing, and what we emphasize in the guideline, is that regardless of the tool you use, it should include those high-priority domains that are associated with outcomes in older adults with cancer. And those include an assessment of physical function, of cognition, emotional health, comorbidities, polypharmacy, nutrition, and social support. In addition to that, an important thing that the guideline does is endorse the recommendation from our parent guideline, the guideline from high-income settings, the practical geriatric assessment, which is a tool that was actually developed by the ASCO Geriatric Oncology Group, which is a self-administered tool that people can use to evaluate their patients in a prompt and fast manner. And what we actually did for this guideline is include the validation of the various tools included in the practical geriatric assessment in the five most widely spoken languages in the world, including Hindi, Chinese, Spanish, and French, and Portuguese. And so, most of these tools are validated in these languages.

So, we believe that the practical geriatric assessment is a tool that can be utilized across settings and that doesn’t require a lot of resources. I think an important future step is making sure that we get the practical geriatric assessment translated into various languages, and we’re working with the ASCO team in getting that done.

Brittany Harvey: That’s an excellent point. And yes, we’ll hope to have the practical geriatric assessment translated into more languages. And that tool is available linked in the guideline itself, and we’ll also provide a link for listeners in the show notes of this episode (Practical Geriatric Assessment).

So then, following that, Dr. Bergerot, in resource-constrained settings, what general life expectancy data should clinicians use to estimate mortality and inform treatment decision-making?

Dr. Cris Bergerot: So, in basic and limited resource environments, you might not have access to every tool or specialist, but you can still make informed and thoughtful decisions. So, what the guideline recommends is to start with population-level life expectancy tables. These are available through the WHO Global Health Observatory, and they offer useful starting points. And if available, clinicians should also look for country-specific or regional survival data. That kind of local information can be even more relevant to your patient population. The clinical judgment is also key here, and it becomes even more powerful when it’s guided by the patient’s geriatric assessment results. And when possible, use age- and comorbidity-adjusted models, like the Lee index or tools from the ePrognosis. This can help refine estimates of mortality risk and also inform how aggressive treatment should be.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. I appreciate you providing those specifics as well.

So then, following that, Dr. Bergerot mentioned this a little bit earlier, but Dr. Soto, how should geriatric assessment be used to guide management of older patients with cancer across the basic, limited, and enhanced settings?

Dr. Enrique Soto: Yeah, and again, that’s another important focus, right? Because if we assess things and then don’t do anything about them, then why even assess them, right? And in many settings, people say, “Well, I don’t have the tools to provide the interventions that these patients actually need.” And a very significant part of building this guideline was coming up with a resource-stratified and evidence-based way in which to prioritize which interventions provide most benefits for older adults with cancer. And so, for each level and each domain, we have a series of interventions that have been stratified according to importance and evidence base, and that is actually one of the coolest features of the guideline. We included a table, and then we have for each of the domains, including falls, functional status, weight loss, et cetera, what are the interventions that oncologists can do in their clinical visit without needing a lot of resources, including providing some specific information, giving some recommendations to patients, to more high-level things that can be done when the healthcare system allows it, such as working with a nutritionist, providing supplements, testing for particular cognitive impairments, et cetera. So, I encourage people to take a look at that table. It was really a lot of work putting that table together, and that table has specific recommendations for each setting, and I think people will find it very useful.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. That table certainly contains a lot of information that’s very helpful for clinicians. I think it’s important to call out those tailored interventions to improve care and quality of life for every patient.

So then, we’ve just reviewed all of the recommendations in this guideline. So, I’d like to ask you, Dr. Bergerot, in your opinion, what should clinicians know as they implement these recommendations across resource levels?

Dr. Cris Bergerot: I would say that clinicians should remember that even a brief geriatric assessment can make a meaningful difference. You don’t need a full suite of tools to improve quality of care, but clinicians should tailor all the tools that are available in their local context and always keeping in mind the core geriatric domains that we have mentioned in the very beginning of our podcast.

And let’s be clear, the goal of the assessment isn’t just to gather data, as Enrique mentioned; it’s to use this information to guide treatment decision and also to improve outcomes. And whenever possible, clinicians should engage interdisciplinary teams that might include nurse, psychologist, social workers, community health workers, or anyone who can help address the patient’s broader needs. And flexibility really matters. So, especially in settings with limited access to specialists or diagnostics, we should prioritize what is feasible and what will truly help our patients during their journey. And above all, we should keep this in mind that equity in care delivery is essential. Just because resources are limited doesn’t mean we can’t deliver age-sensitive and even patient-centered care.

Brittany Harvey: Definitely. That multidisciplinary care that you mentioned is key, and also thinking about what is feasible across every resource level to provide optimal care for every single patient.

So then, to expand on that just a little bit and to wrap us up, Dr. Soto, what is the impact of this guideline for older adults with cancer globally?

Dr. Enrique Soto: Well, what we hope this guideline will lead to is to a boom in geriatric oncology worldwide, right? That is our final goal. And what we want is for clinicians interested in starting a geriatric oncology program or setting up a geriatric oncology clinic to use these guidelines in order to justify the interventions that they’re going to do, to pick the important partners they need for their multidisciplinary team, to choose the tools that they’re going to implement. And then, with that, to present this to leaders in their hospitals, leaders in their healthcare system so that they can start these clinics that will ultimately lead to better outcomes for older adults with cancer.

So, I encourage people to view this as high-quality, evidence-based recommendations that are done by a group of experts and with a thorough review of the literature and also based on our parent guidelines. The fact that these guidelines are resource-stratified does not by any mean signify that they’re of less quality or that the recommendations that are included in those are not proven to improve outcomes, cancer-specific and also general outcomes, in older adults with cancer.

Another thing that I think these guidelines could do in the future is motivate researchers in low- and middle-income countries to fill in the gaps that we have identified in these guidelines. We’ve made it very clear across the guidelines where evidence is lacking. And I think that this should prompt researchers across the globe to start trying to fill in these gaps with high-quality research.

And finally, I also think that this is a call for policymakers, health administrators, and people interested in public health to start scaling up resources so that places with basic resources can eventually become places with more sophisticated resources. And I think this does not only apply to low- and middle-income countries, but also to community oncologists in the US who may be facing resource constraints. And I think that these guidelines can help them stratify and understand what things should be implemented first and how to scale up.

So yeah, that’s the dream that with this guideline, more people will start implementing geriatric oncology around the globe and that ASCO will continue to be a leader in setting the stage for what should be done in geriatric oncology and for improving care to older adults with cancer, regardless of where they live.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. This guideline is wide-reaching and has important impacts worldwide.

So, I want to thank you both so much for the huge amount of work you took to develop this evidence-based guideline, and thank you for joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Bergerot and Dr. Soto.

Dr. Cris Bergerot: Thank you so much.

Dr. Enrique Soto: Thank you for the invitation. It was a pleasure.

Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/global-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you’ve heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

 

Ms. Kim Woofter and Dr. John Cox discuss the latest updates to the evidence-based standards on oncology medical homes developed by ASCO and COA. These standards serve as the basis for the ASCO Certified program. They share the new and revised standards around topics including the culture of safety and just culture in oncology practice, geriatric assessment and geriatric assessment-guided management, and multidisciplinary team management. They expand on the importance of these standards for clinicians and oncology practices to ensure every patient receives optimal care.

Read the complete standards, “Oncology Medical Homes: ASCO-Community Oncology Alliance Standards Update” at www.asco.org/standards.

TRANSCRIPT

These standards, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/standards. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors’ disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the JCO Oncology Practice, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/OP-25-00498

Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts.

My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I'm interviewing Ms. Kim Woofter, a registered nurse in practice leadership and administration from AC3 Inc in South Bend, Indiana, and Dr. John Cox, a medical oncologist and adjunct faculty member from UT Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, Texas, co-chairs on "Oncology Medical Homes, American Society of Clinical Oncology – Community Oncology Alliance Standards." Thank you for being here today, Ms. Woofter and Dr. Cox.

Dr. John Cox: You bet.

Ms. Kim Woofter: Thank you.

Brittany Harvey: And then before we discuss these standards, I'd just like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its standards and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guidance product. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the expert panel, including Dr. Cox and Ms. Woofter, who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the standards in JCO Oncology Practice, which is linked in the show notes.

So then, to dive into what we're here today to talk about, Dr. Cox, could you start us off by explaining what prompted an update to these ASCO-COA standards and what the scope of this update is?

Dr. John Cox: Well, the ASCO-COA standards relative to defining and outlining Oncology Medical Home were initially published four or five years ago. At the time, we planned a regular update of the standards. So, in essence, this is a planned update. The whole program is built on the idea of continuous improvement. So, this update and future updates are prompted and defined by our literature, our science, the science of care delivery, and new developments and insights gained from studies and evaluations of care delivery methods, and informed by the practice. These standards are in place to underpin a program of care delivery by ASCO, the ASCO Certified, and as practices engage in this program, we are learning from them. The whole idea is to enlarge and improve how patients are cared for in practice.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It's great to have this iterative process to continue to review the evidence and update these standards that form the basis for ASCO Certified.

So then, following that background, Ms. Woofter, I'd like to review the key points of the revised standards for our listeners. First, how do the revised standards address the culture of safety and just culture in oncology practice?

Ms. Kim Woofter: I think safety is of utmost importance to all of us. So let me say that first and foremost. And what we know in oncology is our QOPI standards already address safety in the infusion suite process. So, safe delivery of chemotherapy agents and antineoplastics. It also talked about near misses and medication errors - absolutely essential, for sure.

But what we need to do is look at a more systemic approach to safety because we know is processes throughout an organization they’ll often cause you trouble. To do that, we know you need what we call a just culture, which is a very common term in today's workplace. But what it really means is it's a culture of open reporting of any potential for error, any potential for malfunction, and it can be in any place in the organization. So, what we are doing in our new standard is to say, look at your entire processes throughout the organization, and approach that in an open-minded way so that people don't feel scared to report things, and it's a really positive approach to intervening early and making sure that errors don't occur anywhere in the workplace.

Brittany Harvey: Taking that systemic approach to look at overarching processes seems really key to ensuring safety in oncology practices.

So then, the next new section, Dr. Cox, what are the new OMH standards surrounding geriatric assessment and geriatric assessment–guided management?

Dr. John Cox: This is a challenging update for our standards. As many folks in practice recognize, there is a deep literature on recognizing the geriatric population in oncology. Geriatric - those in my age group over age 60, 65 - make up the majority of cancer patients in this country. And yet, there are many aspects that should be taken into account as you address treatment decisions in this population.

ASCO's recognized this. There has been a guideline previously on geriatric assessment. It's been updated, and we really felt it's time that it be incorporated in any iteration of what oncology care delivery means, so, within the oncology medical home standards. In short, what the standard outlines is that practices that are using these standards, that are using this benchmark, should have a geriatric assessment for patients within the practice care and use that information to guide management. Now, the standard allows wide exploration of how practices meet this standard, but it really puts on the table that if an oncology practice in the United States, or anywhere in the world really, is adhering to a good practice, that they're going to include and recognize these assessments in practice.

Ms. Kim Woofter: I would like to add that this is a highly discussed and reviewed standard. Many of our community practices were concerned that they would have the time and manpower to perform this assessment. We all know it reduces toxicities if done appropriately at treatment planning, and so the outcomes are better. And we really left it to the practices to define how they're going to implement it, understanding that it will evolve to every single patient, but maybe day one, it was a step approach to be able to implement. So, I was really proud of the team that - the expert panel - that said, okay, let's step into this, but we do think it's essential.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It's important to recognize that practices may have limited resources and time, and implementing it in the way that makes sense for them allows this to be a standard that can be used in practice. And it's great to have this geriatric assessment guideline integrated into these standards to improve care delivery. And we can provide a link to that guideline in the show notes of this episode as well (Practical Assessment and Management of Vulnerabilities in Older Patients Receiving Systemic Cancer Therapy: ASCO Guideline Update).

So then, following that section of the standards, Ms. Woofter, how do the updated standards now address multidisciplinary team management?

Ms. Kim Woofter: Well, we address multidisciplinary team management in a more comprehensive way in the updated standard. We always thought that that was a critical piece when doing treatment planning, and we kind of highlighted it in a bigger way, understanding that not everybody has the same resources available at the time of treatment planning. And again, this was a much-discussed standard, in that that multidisciplinary team approach doesn't necessarily have to be in a tumor board or a prospective analysis of every case. It is actually a conversation between specialists, between the surgeon and pathologist and the medical oncologist. And we are saying, do what works for you, but we know that that team approach, every specialty coming to the table at time of treatment planning, truly provides better outcomes for our patients. And so we kind of reiterated that, understanding that again, it doesn't have to be a formal tumor board, but it has to be a dialogue between specialties. And we highlighted that again in the new standard.

Brittany Harvey: Open communication of all team members is really critical to providing optimal care.

Dr. Cox, I'd like to ask you, in your view, how will these updated standards impact both clinicians and oncology practices?

Dr. John Cox: Well, our whole goal with discussing a comprehensive care model for oncology practice is to have a benchmark, to have an iteration of what good oncology care delivery looks like. So, our hope is that practices, all practices, whether you're participating formally in ASCO Certified, the marquee quality program for ASCO, or if you are simply running a practice or a team within an academic environment or institutional environment, these standards are to apply across the board wherever oncology is practiced - that you can look at these standards as a benchmark and compare what you are doing in your practice and where are the gaps. So ideally, we drive improved care across the board.

You know, one thing I've learned over the last couple of years as ASCO Certified is getting spun up and using and implementing these standards, is practices are remarkably innovative. We've learned a lot by seeing how pilot practices have met the standards, and that's gone into informing how we can improve care delivery for all of our practices and, importantly, for the team members who are delivering this care. The fourth rail of burnout and the like is inefficiency that occurs in practice. And when you know you've got a good, spun-up, effective team, less burnout, less stress for practice. I hope clinicians and oncology practices will use this to help drive improvements in their care and gain insight into how they can approach practice problems in a better way.

Kim, you've been leading practices. I have to ask you, your thoughts in leaning into this question.

Ms. Kim Woofter: I think very well said, I will say that first. And what I love about this is for practice leaders who are new to our ecosystem, if you will, they need a playbook. It's “Where do I begin?” And Dr. Cox said it very well, no one does everything perfectly day one, but it's a step-by-step self-assessment approach to say, “How do I get to this gold standard?” I really love the standards because they are very comprehensive, everything from treatment planning to end of life. So it's the spectrum of the care we deliver in the oncology setting.

So as a leader and an administrator, it is the standard I want all of my departments to understand, adhere to, and engage, and be excited about. We now have a baseline approach, and what's even more important, these standards will evolve as our intelligence evolves, as literature evolves. It's a system that will always grow and change, and that's what we love about it. It's not a one-and-done. So, I'm very proud of the fact that it gives them a road map.

Brittany Harvey: Yes, these evidence-based standards provide a critical foundation for practices in ASCO Certified, for those team members you mentioned, and for quality improvement beyond just those individuals and practices as well.

So then finally, to wrap us up, Ms. Woofter, what do these revised standards mean for patients receiving cancer treatment?

Ms. Kim Woofter: Well, I think that's the most exciting part, is we all do this for our patients and the best outcomes for our patients and the best treatment plans for our patients and their families. And these standards, that is their core, their absolute core. So what it's going to do for a patient is they can say, “Am I at a practice that implements ASCO standards?” And if that is a ‘yes’, there's a confidence that, “I am in an evidence-based medicine thinking practice, I have a team around me, they will care for me not only at time of treatment planning but at the time of end of life, they will help me be part of that decision-making, and they will give me resources available to me in my community.” So, it is a true comprehensive approach. As a patient, I have that comfort, that it is bigger than just a great doctor. It is a great team. As a patient, that would be very important to me and important to my family.

That being said, Kim Woofter would love every practice to be ASCO Certified. Understanding that that isn't feasible day one, just to know that the practice is implementing and engaging the standards is the great place to start. Every patient can't go to an ASCO Certified practice day one, but our dream would be that everyone would adhere to those standards, engage those standards, believe them, educate their staff on what they mean, so that patient outcomes and satisfaction will be optimized for everyone.

The other piece to this that we all know is if you give evidence-based medicine, cost-effective, efficient care, it's better for the system as a whole. And I'm not saying that insurance is our driver - certainly patient outcomes are our driver - but the whole ecosystem of oncology benefits when you do the right thing.

Dr. John Cox: It's hard to add anything to Kim's good statements, but I just highlight that this whole area began with the patient-centered medical home, and every time we've met, patients and how we deliver care to patients is top of mind. I think that reflects our community. It reflects oncology as a whole. I don't know any oncologist or practice that is focused on anything else as the prime goal.

Brittany Harvey: That's what I was just going to say. The ultimate goal here is to provide patient-centered care across where every single patient is receiving treatment and at every stage of that treatment.

So, I want to thank you both so much for your work to update these standards, to review the evidence, and discuss with the experts on the panel to come up with the solutions that will help drive quality improvement across care delivery. So, thank you for that, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Cox and Ms. Woofter.

And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the complete standards, go to www.asco.org/standards. You can also find many of our standards and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available on the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Dr. Joshua Reuss joints that podcast to discuss the latest changes to the living guideline on stage IV NSCLC with driver alterations. He discusses the new evidence for NSCLC with EGFR mutations and NRG1 fusions and how this impacts the latest recommendations from the panel. He shares ongoing research that the panel will review in the future for further updates to this living guideline, and puts the updated recommendations into context for clinicians treating patients with stage IV NSCLC.

Read the full living guideline update “Therapy for Stage IV Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer With Driver Alterations: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2025.1” at www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines

TRANSCRIPT

This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors’ disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-01061

Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines Podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts.

My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Joshua Reuss from Georgetown University, co-chair on "Therapy for Stage IV Non–Small Cell Lung Cancer With Driver Alterations: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2025.1."

It's great to have you here today, Dr. Reuss.

Dr. Joshua Reuss: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Brittany Harvey: And then before we discuss this guideline, I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Reuss, who has joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes.

So to dive into what we're here today to talk about, Dr. Reuss, this living clinical practice guideline for systemic therapy for patients with stage IV non–small cell lung cancer with driver alterations is updated on an ongoing basis. So what prompted this latest update to the recommendations?

Dr. Joshua Reuss: Yes, thank you. It's very important that we have living guidelines that are continuously updated. We obviously don't live in a static environment where things are non-changing, and we really need to apply the most up-to-date and current evidence to treat our patients with the most effective strategies, the most groundbreaking strategies. And so to have guidelines that can be disseminated, particularly these ASCO guidelines, to treating providers is incredibly important.

So, with any of these updates, we review ongoing studies, published work, for the quality of evidence to see if it's something that warrants making adjustments to our guidelines or at least incorporating the information so that providers can review it and incorporate this into their own personal decision-making.

So in this particular update, we reviewed evidence particularly pertaining to EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer and non–small cell lung cancer harboring an NRG1 fusion.

Brittany Harvey: Yes, certainly there's a lot of new evidence in the advanced non–small cell lung cancer field, and so we appreciate the panel's continuous review of this evidence.

So then you just mentioned two separate areas where the panel reviewed new evidence. So starting with that first one, what updated evidence did the panel review on first-line treatment options for patients with EGFR alterations, and how did this impact the recommendations?

Dr. Joshua Reuss: Yes, so advanced EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer, at least with classical activating alterations - that is our exon 19 deletions and our exon 21 L858R mutations - is something that's really evolved rapidly in the last few years. You know, for many years, we basically, for the frontline treatment setting, were saying, "Okay, we have a targeted therapy, osimertinib. We're going to give that, and we're going to see what effect we can get out of that," with, you know, a median time of duration of treatment response averaging around 18 months, knowing that there are some that that's a lot longer and some that are a lot shorter. But recently, we've seen a lot of data emerging on combination strategies. The guideline has already been updated to incorporate two of these combinations: osimertinib with chemotherapy based off of the FLAURA2 trial, and then the combination of amivantamab with lazertinib based off of the MARIPOSA trial. And that was data on progression-free survival that was published and led to those particular recommendations.

Now, more recently, we've seen data come out in smaller, randomized studies for other combinations. And more recently, we reviewed the RAMOSE study. So this was a phase II, open-label, randomized trial for patients with tyrosine kinase inhibitor–naive and really, treatment-naive advanced EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer harboring one of these two classical EGFR alterations, randomized to either osimertinib alone or osimertinib with the combination of ramucirumab, which is an anti-VEGF agent. There's been a lot of data, preclinical and clinical, for the role of VEGF blockade, particularly in EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer, so exploring the combination of this for synergy in the frontline setting really made a lot of sense.

So again, this was a phase II trial that randomized patients prospectively to one of these two regimens. The population here is really what we typically see with EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer, predominantly a younger population - median age on this study was 65 - predominantly female - 71% female - and predominantly nonsmokers. Now, what this study showed was that at a median follow-up of 16.6 months, the progression-free survival favored the combination arm with a median progression-free survival of 24.8 months with the combination of osimertinib plus ramucirumab versus 15.6 months for osimertinib alone, for a hazard ratio of benefit of 0.55. The landmark one- and two-year endpoints for progression-free survival also favored the combination arm, and response rates were relatively comparable between groups, with overall adverse events being more frequent in the combination group, specifically high blood pressure, proteinuria, and epistaxis, which are our common adverse events related to VEGF-blocking agents.

So, it's good to see data in this space. Now, of note, though, this was a phase II study, so not a phase III level of evidence. In addition, when looking at the population, this was a randomized, multicenter study, but it was a US-only population. There was also some imbalance in the number of visits between arms, so the combination arm was seen more frequently than the arm that got osimertinib alone. Now, the imaging assessments were no different, but obviously this could lead to potential confounding, at least in timing of awareness of potential side effects and and things being brought to the attention of investigators. So very promising data here, but because, you know, of this being a phase II study, this actually led to no changes in the guideline at this time.

Brittany Harvey: Understood. Yes, as you mentioned prior, it's important to understand the full body of evidence and to review the trials even when it doesn't impact the recommendations.

Dr. Joshua Reuss: And I will say that, you know, there is an ongoing phase III study looking at a very similar combination. It's the phase III ECOG-ACRIN trial of the combination of osimertinib plus bevacizumab versus osimertinib alone in this specific population. So, you know, I think we will see phase III–level data for a combination of VEGF with osimertinib, but again, promising phase II data that did not lead to a change in the recommendation at this time.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. We'll look forward to that ongoing trial to learn more about combination in this patient population.

So then moving to that second patient population that you mentioned earlier where the panel reviewed evidence, what is the updated evidence and recommendation for patients with NRG1 fusions?

Dr. Joshua Reuss: Yeah, so this was an exciting update that we made more recently with this unique iteration of the living guidelines. So, NRG1 fusions, this is perhaps a newer kid on the block in terms of driver alterations that has been known to be identified in non–small cell lung cancer among other solid tumors. It is very rare, occurring in less than 1% of solid tumors, but something that we know is a unique oncogenic pathway that can lead to oncogenesis and cancer development, including in non–small cell lung cancer.

So up until now, unfortunately, there have not been targeted therapies that target this unique alteration. It's somewhat different than other driver alterations where there's a top-level signaling change in a protein. This is more of a ligand alteration that then alters, that then enables activation of more classical pathways, but again, through upregulation of a unique ligand. So a slightly different pathway but something that we know should be able to be targeted to promote patient survival for those with NRG1 fusions.

So the therapy here is a therapy called zenocutuzumab. It's an IgG1 bispecific antibody against HER2 and HER3. So it prevents the downstream dimerization and signaling that occurs as a result of this NRG1 fusion and upregulation of the NRG1 signal. This was, as you can imagine with a rare alteration, a large phase II registrational study that examined this in advanced solid tumors containing the NRG1 fusion. This is the NRG1 registrational trial.

And this study enrolled patients with advanced solid tumors who had progressed on prior therapy. Patients were treated with zenocutuzumab 750 milligrams IV every two weeks. Among 158 response-evaluable solid tumor patients, the response rate was 30%, median duration of response of 11.1 months, and a median progression-free survival of 6.8 months.

Now, in those with non–small cell lung cancer, that made up 93 response-evaluable patients, very similar outcomes there: a response rate of 29%, median duration of response of 12.7 months, and a median progression-free survival of 6.8 months. This therapy did appear to be well tolerated. The most common higher-grade emergent side effects - grade 3 or higher - were anemia occurring in 5% and elevated liver numbers occurring in 3%.

So this is a subsequent-line study, so this led to the updated recommendation that clinicians may offer zenocutuzumab in the subsequent-line setting for patients with advanced non–small cell lung cancer who harbor NRG1 fusions. So I think this does speak toward the incredible importance of next-generation sequencing and molecular testing for patients, particularly to include testing that looks at the RNA. These large fusions can sometimes be very challenging to detect on DNA sequencing platforms alone, so it's important to, if you have a high level of suspicion for an alteration like this, perhaps some of the mucinous adenocarcinomas where it's been challenging to find a driver alteration, and it's someone who is a never-smoker, really would want to include molecular testing that assesses the RNA level and not just the DNA.

Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It's important to have all the biomarkers available so that clinicians are able to use that to inform their decision-making.

So then, given these changes in the guideline, what should clinicians know as they implement this latest living guideline update? And how do these changes impact patients?

Dr. Joshua Reuss: Yeah, I think talking in reverse order of what we just discussed here, there is a new guideline update for NRG1 fusions. So I think making sure that that's being evaluated, that clinicians are testing for that and really looking for that result that should be incorporated in in most next-generation large sequencing assays to get that result, but it's very important that that is not overlooked now that we do have a therapy that's available in the subsequent-line setting, though it is important to note that patients with NRG1 fusions, at least the limited data that there is suggests that the efficacy to standard chemoimmunotherapy regimens is overall poor. So physicians unfortunately might be facing this question for second-line therapy in patients with NRG1 fusions sooner rather than later.

For the former, for EGFR-altered non–small cell lung cancer and how do we incorporate VEGF-containing regimens into these patients? Our guideline top-level update did not change based off of review of this new study, but it's important for clinicians to know what other combinations may exist. You know, there are phase III studies looking at this combination in the frontline setting. And of course, there is data on other bispecific molecules that incorporate VEGF in the subsequent-line setting, particularly a combination that includes the VEGF/PD-1 bispecific antibody ivonescimab that's being studied in the HARMONi-A trial for patients with EGFR-mutated advanced non–small cell lung cancer, for which we hope to get some more definitive data in the coming months.

Brittany Harvey: Definitely.

And then you've just mentioned a few ongoing trials where we're looking for evidence to inform future updates. But thinking beyond that, into the future, what is the panel examining for future updates to this living guideline?

Dr. Joshua Reuss: It's a very exciting time to be in the world of treating advanced non–small cell lung cancer, particularly patients with driver alterations, because there is so much evolving data that's changing our practice in real time, again highlighting the importance of these living guideline updates. I'd say there's many things that we're excited to see. You know, a lot of the combination regimens in EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer for which there are approvals and current recommendations in our guideline, particularly osimertinib plus chemotherapy and amivantamab plus lazertinib - those are the two approved combination strategies in the front line - we are now seeing the emergence of overall survival data for those combinations. So obviously that is something that's going to be very important for the committee to review and incorporate into guideline updates.

There are several new therapies coming down the road for other driver populations. We recently saw an approval for taletrectinib for ROS1 fusion–positive non–small cell lung cancer, so it's going to be important that the committee reviews the data and the publications regarding that therapy.

And then there are other novel therapies that we're looking to see updated data on. There are multiple antibody-drug conjugates, which take the potent power of a chemotherapy molecule and attempt to make that targeted with an antibody targeting to a unique feature on the cancer cell. And there are several antibody-drug conjugates that are in development at various levels of promise in this space, particularly in EGFR-mutated non–small cell lung cancer, and I anticipate seeing some emerging data for that coming up in the near future as well. So really, lots to be excited in the space and lots for our committee to review to give guidance on so that these patients can really receive the top-level care wherever they are being treated in the country and throughout the world.

Brittany Harvey: Yes, we'll await this new data to continue to provide optimal options for patients with stage IV non–small cell lung cancer with driver alterations.

So, Dr. Reuss, I want to thank you so much for your work to rapidly and continuously update and review the evidence for this guideline and thank you for your time today.

Dr. Joshua Reuss: Thank you so much.

Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines Podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available on the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

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